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    Talking Politics

    Interview: The perils of Lords reform

    Mark HarperIt is, perhaps, the hardest reform of them all. Can Mark Harper succeed where so many before him have failed?

    The Conservative constitutional reform minister is in an unusual position: he is the right-hand-man to deputy prime minister Nick Clegg. Twenty months into the job, Harper is upbeat about coalition relations when I interview him in his Westminster office. The arrangement "works very well", he insists. After all, they managed to survive the acrimony which surrounded the tone of the electoral reform referendum campaign. Harper doesn't pretend that this wasn't a tough period. "If you can work through a quite contentious issue like that, I think you can do it through anything."

    His job is far from easy. The Lib Dems are inherently keener on the constitutional reform agenda, so persuading Tories is often harder work. "We work together very hard with our respective parties," Harper says. I suspect he has to work much harder than Clegg.

    It's Harper's job to win over the many Tories who oppose any kind of change. He tries hard in my interview, pointing to recent polling which shows the majority of the public are enthusiastic about reform (when they're asked about it). When push comes to shove, though, he has another line of defence to fall back on. "For those Conservative colleagues who are not in favour of Lords reform at all - it was in our manifesto," he says flatly. "We can argue about the detail, but the principle has been accepted by our party as well."

    As constitutional experts know, the devil is in the detail. But Harper's tactic of calling for unity on the principle of the matter is one he is frequently forced to retreat to. "The Labour party is in favour of reform of the Lords," he says. "There are differences of view about the detail but we all agree about the principle. So I hope very much that when we bring forward our bill... they will support it very enthusiastically."

    Harper implicitly acknowledges the need for Labour's support in his fighting talk against recalcitrant peers. "If the House of Commons, which is the elected chamber, passes a piece of legislation that has a significant and cross-party majority and it's about House of Lords reform I really don't think unelected peers should try and block this," he adds. Note the need for a "cross-party" majority. Constitutional reforms live and die by political unity; those which don't never stand much chance of succeeding in the short-term, let alone the long run.

    It will be of concern to reformers that Labour feels the coalition has done all it can to alienate the opposition since the general election. Harper denies that the move to implement five-year fixed parliamentary terms was politically motivated, insisting that the change was about much more than just locking in the Lib Dems and the Tories into a stable coalition. If it had only been about securing David Cameron in No 10, he argues, ministers would have accepted Labour's calls for the bill to apply to one term only. "If anyone was behaving in a partisan manner, it was them," he adds. "Even if we, God forbid, were not to win the next election and we were in opposition, that would be in place... we would insist on the principle, even if that turns out in the future not to be in our interests."

    Suspicions of partisan motives are perhaps better grounded when it comes to the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Act, which paved the way for an electoral reform referendum in return for boundary changes and the reduction in the size of the Commons from 650 to 600. The latter two were the subject of a behind-closed-doors quid pro quo between the two governing parties, prompting an unsuccessful spirited bid to filibuster the AV referendum from Labour MPs. More recently, the opposition's suspicions of the impact the switch to individual voter registration will have on registration levels in urban levels has also put Harper under pressure.

    The minister, as you'd expect, has a very different perspective. Impure partisan thoughts are nothing to do with it. "If you'd have to put a theme around the things we're doing, it's trying to get people to be more confident that their opinions are going to be listened to," he explains. Through this prism, changing the constituencies is about making them fairer and more equal, fixed term parliaments ends the "silly game" of when the next election will be, and the mayoral referenda coming up in May are about giving people more control over their local environment. "They're important, but they're not necessarily at the centre of thinking in people's lives."

    There are signs the opposition is willing to move beyond its prickly response to what it perceives as brazen antagonism from the coalition. But Harper's early battles with Labour will have to be put well and truly behind him if he is to succeed in the coming Lords struggle.

    His problem, then, are the divides that continue to prevent cross-party unity being achieved. Harper may want to brush the detail under the carpet in favour of the principle, but there will come a time before not too long when dodging the issue is no longer an option. For now, there is little sign he is prepared to budge on the three biggest issues currently dividing the coalition from Labour.

    First is the voting system to be used to elect the reformed Lords. "PR is a must," Harper says. That's fine, but what kind? Labour would like to see a 'closed list' form of proportional representation. In this system, the party gets to fill their percentage of the chamber with the candidates they prefer. The government thinks voters should have at least some say in which candidates eventually get elected. It prefers single transferable vote. Harper says there is room for movement here, but seems unwilling to accept a closed list.

    Next is the possibility of a referendum on the changes. Labour thinks this is a good idea, having put it in its manifesto. The coalition would rather avoid the risk of having the public derail the reforms. Harper cites a report from the Lords' constitutional committee saying a referendum would only be needed were the Lords being abolished completely. But there is no clear-cut view either way, and it's felt that it would be very hard for Labour to change their minds on this.

    Finally we come to the question of whether the new Lords should be wholly elected, or whether 20% of its members should be appointed. Labour's position on this is not entirely straightforward, but it's clear they would definitely prefer a 100% elected second chamber.

    Clegg agrees, but pragmatically accepts 80% wouldn't be bad going. This gives Harper all the room he needs to extol the virtues of an 80% elected second chamber. These are based around it ensuring the ongoing supremacy of the Commons - an unresolved issue in the draft legislation. Its insistence that the relationship between the two Houses is unaffected is attracting much criticism from members of the joint committee of peers and MPs currently scrutinising the draft legislation. Again, Harper brushes this off as merely the detail.

    Ministers never make concessions to the opposition unless they absolutely cannot help it. The unresolved disputes over Lords reform show Harper is no exception to this rule. Yet there is an unusually strong pressure to achieve cross-party unity on his proposals, for the greatest enemy of change is not likely to be Labour.

    In the end, it is the Lords who need confronting and defeating. Turkeys are not going to vote for Christmas. A to-the-death struggle is expected which will see peers refuse to sign their own collective death warrants.

    The fight will begin in the next session of parliament. Harper is tight-lipped over whether the legislation will be included in the Queen's Speech, but it would be very surprising if it is delayed. If the Lords are as intransigent as expected, how will the coalition make sure it gets its way?

    Harper has a stock answer, which he used more than once in this interview, when asked about the coming confrontation. "We will use all the tools at our disposal," he says grimly. That means, above all else, the Parliament Act. Insiders say it would be deployed in the third session of parliament - ie, the year from May 2013.

    It could place Harper at the centre of the biggest constitutional battle this country has seen for a century. But the legislation, when it comes, may not even make it to the Lords without the cross-party unity thought to be critical to its success. There will need to be a real change in the government's approach if Harper is the man to end the 100-year hiatus after the unfinished business of 1911.

     

    44 comments

    • A J  •  London, England  •  3 months ago
      Making the Lords elected would do two things : fill it with politicians - we've got enough of those already. The type of people we need in the Lords are people from various walks of life but who bring some expertise to the role and who are not under the thumb of any political party. There is nothing wrong with having landowners in the Lords as they represent an element of society. What we also need though are business people scientists, inventors, experts in all sorts of fields. Second, it would give it too much power. The current role of the Lords is to amend and advise. They have done this reasonably well for many years but ultimately they cannot override the will of the Commons and that is right. Once they become elected this is going to open up a whole can of worms. And let's not forget the expense of having an elected Lords. I don't know what a general election costs but it is 100 millions of £ - and we want to incur those costs a second time when in all probability the turnout will be about 30% of the population ?
      • michael 3 months ago
        Electing officials brings in the possibility of bought government by special interests The house Lords balances out the tony blairs of the world
      • SUSAN 3 months ago
        @ AJ - the Lords is 'full of politicians now', except at the moment they are largely choosen by the executive. I agree with you that the Lords should have people from all walks of life, but your suggestions of the type of people you would like to see there is just too narrow - landowners, for instance, represent a very small proportion of the people of this country.

        No, the absolute necessity is that the appointment of Lords has to be taken away from the political elite, and handed to the people - but safeguards have to be put into place, to ensure that the Lords remains a 'scrutinising' house - but it does need teeth - and at the moment it totally lacks teeth. Look at what's happening now with the benefits legislation - rightly or wrongly (wrongly in my opinion) the Lords has 'blocked' the cap on benefits - but the commons are just going to ignore this althogether - so what was the point of the Lords even debating & scrutinising this legislation. The House of Commons are merely going to turn round to the Lords, stick two fingers up at them, and say - we are the elected representatives of the people, we have more legitimacy than you, we are going to do exactly as we wish. So, although I don't agree with most of what the Lords are proposing (& to be honest I haven't followed it that closely) none of what they have had to say about the legislation will be taken into account - they have absolutely no power.
    • Twain shall meet  •  London, England  •  4 months ago
      The recent votes against the government by the Lords demonstrates that the House of Lords does do something ~ it fulfils some function. I wonder if an elected house would counter-balance the House of Commons. I suspect that we would end up with a second House that merely rubber stamps government bills. Most people don't vote in the elections that we have now. Is it just more jobs for the politically active?
      • GAREN 4 months ago
        It's not just recent votes against the Commons, they have prevented many of the previous Labour Governments wacky rulings from ever seeing the light of day! - Hoorah! for the House of Lords, they are useful!
      • SUSAN 3 months ago
        If the Lords were elected, it would give them more legitimacy - as the Commons would not be able to say they have no mandate - and if they were elected on a different cycle to the commons, at the time of the election, they would almost certainly be a slightly different political atmosphere to the time the commons were elected, and therefore it would not be merely a reflection of the commons.

        There is absolutely no doubt that the Lords has to remain a 'scrutinising' house, and a lot of progress has been made in the committee stages of legislation scrutiny in the Lords in co-opting 'experts' in the various fields, to advise on this - and long may it continue (and improve) - but the Lords needs teeth, and making it elected gives it the legitimacy it requires - the executive ie. ultimately, the cabinet, and the Prime Minister and their closest advisers, do - in my opinion have far too much power. Our Prime Ministers have become far too 'Presidential', and with a built in majority of any government in the commons, under our majoritarian First Past The Post (FPTP) electoral system, there is too much power concentrated in one place.
      • Twain shall meet 3 months ago
        From your argument about the Presidential nature of our government, it can be seen that the House of Commons is a "scrutinising" house and that the House of Lords "scrutinises" the scrutinisers.

        What I find tragic is the way we talk about "tinkering" with part of the system rather than undertaking a comprehensive review of our system in its entirety. That talk has been going on for years.

        The Leverson Inquiry is illustrating that all too often it is the media that sets the agenda rather than our elected representatives. Vast amounts of our elected representatives time is spent introducing new legislation as a response to those unexpected agenda items ~ politiking has become more important than the issues.

        Four out of ten potential voters in the last general election did not vote. Many of those who did vote, voted on the basis of least worst option.
    • Grimlar  •  Brighton, England  •  4 months ago
      I know that many people see the Lords as unelected and unrepresentative, but I would suggest that people remember that the Lords cannot actually prevent any legislation the Commons passes.

      Also, that quite a few of the Lords are not hereditary peers, lawyers or bishops, a fair number are ex leaders of industry, charity workers and so on as well as ex politicians. Many of whom, because they are no longer reliant on their party for their job, 'toe the party line' rather less than they did earlier in life.

      As such they offer a combination of experience taken from all walks of life that frequently finds mistakes in government legislation and offers corrections. Which is its purpose.

      Is it a perfect arrangement? Of course not, cna it be improved, absolutely, but care is needed.

      because the problem with an elected, and therefore supposedly more representative House of Lords, is that it will be filled with politicians, dependant on the support of their party for the job, and therefore much more easily bullied into doing whatever their party believes is right.

      The real problem here is political parties and career politicians, not elected vs unelected representatives.
      • Ian Gray 3 months ago
        good -get rid of them then -lock stock and ermins.
      • SUSAN 3 months ago
        @ Grimlar - so what's to stop the ex-leaders of industry, charity workers etc, etc. from standing for election - the only requirement would be that in order for this to happen, is that a rule be brought in that anyone standing for election to the 'Lords' should not be able to stand on a party ticket, and that no party whip should be allowed in the 'Lords'. The important thing is to remove the appointment of Lords away from the political elite, and allow us (the people) to appoint them, via a fair election.

        The difference between the Lords, and the Commons - is that the Commons already has a built in majority for the government (and the executive/cabinet), and this is heavily whipped, and largely follows the individual party lines very strictly. All we have to do is keep remembering that the Lords has a scrutinisng role, and that any reform should take this largely into account.

        If the Lords remains unelected, they will not have a mandate from the people, and therefore will continue to have no power to scrutinise the legislation coming from the executive, and the commons.
    • Matt  •  3 months ago
      I suggest we give more powers to the Lords...budgetary veto for one. If they'd had that under Labour, this economic black hole wouldn't exist because Gordon wouldn't have been allowed to borrow so much money. The rich have a vested interest in the country staying wealthy...more money for them to grab a percentage of; politicians don't...Labour won twice even after its terrible economic policy was known. Personally I trust the wealthy and the vested interests more than politicians, at least you know where things stand with the former and can plan accordingly.
    • michael  •  Cajeme, Mexico  •  3 months ago
      Do you want a government that is bought and payed for by for example oil or pharmeceuticals and defence contracts ?? Seats in the house of Lords by being inherited reduces greatly the influence peddling that goes on with elected officials who depend on contributions to get their slot in Parliament which means they have to pay back their benefactors Tony Blair is a blatent example of nouveux riche self serving Politics, a bit like Newt Gingrich. For the most part the old guard Tories put country first and genuinely felt a responsibility to their constituents .and most importantly were not so easily purchased by outside interests The House of Lords is a great counter against corruption
    • DerekP  •  London, England  •  3 months ago
      I always considered the House of Lords, although an anachronism, to be a controlling influence on the excesses of the 'lower house'. But since the benches were packed with the cronies of Blair (look at the number of Baronesses there are and see what ethnic origin they have) plus the "Other Planet" opinions and interests of the Clergy, they are long overdue to be reviewed and changed. How can the ordinary man be represented properly with that sort of a set up? Short answer - he can't.
    • SUSAN  •  Ilford, England  •  4 months ago
      Lords reform has been on the agenda for over 100 years now - when is it actually going to happen? How have governments got away with filling the place full of their cronies for so long? Surely, the make-up of the reforming (scrutinising) house, should not be up to the executive who formulate the policies in the first place - it's so obviously wrong.

      The Lords needs to be wholely voted in, by us, on a different cycle to the commons, with the use of Proportional Representation, so that it has legitimacy with the executive, and has real teeth, so it can stop many aspects, of what has been over the years, some very awful legislation.
      • Phoenix 3 months ago
        I like the idea, but the chances of the MPs in the Commons constructing a second chamber that could be argued to have more democratic legitimacy than them are remote
      • SUSAN 3 months ago
        @ .. - it would also, as you say, place pressure on the Commons to also be voted in using a more representative system. We had the voting reform referendum last May, but this did not include the option of Proportional Representation (PR) - I'm still very annoyed that either the Lib Dems (as part of the coalition deal), and/or the Tories blocked this. This was very undemocratic - we should have been given the choice of PR. As you say, removing the grip of power from the political elite to the people is a very long and arduous process, but ultimately, not totally unachievable. And very necessary for the long-term future of our country, I believe.
      • ANDREW 3 months ago
        If the Lords really is so full of 'cronies' then why is it so good at being a 'thorn in the flesh' of any government? We need to avoid another house full of more career politicians and have a genuine reforming chamber that brings a different perspective to legislation.
    • PETER  •  London, England  •  3 months ago
      Turn the clock back so that the Peers of the Realm sit in the house of Lords. I trusted them far more than the jumped up nothings that we are putting in there now. I'm sorry, but the thought of Lord John Prescott, Lord Sebastion Coe etc etc just does not do it for me. Whoever started this so called reform should be hung from the gallows in Parliament Square!
    • Jules  •  Manchester, England  •  3 months ago
      Surely, one of the greatest difficulties for reformers will be getting many of the Commons to vote for abolition of a potential "pension top up" of £300 per day which can come their way if they toe the party line and are rewarded with a peerage. Many of them dress up their opposition to reform with concerns about the effect on our democracy. More like concerns about their retirement income in my opinion!
    • nick  •  Milton Keynes, England  •  3 months ago
      Cut the number of MPs to the number of Counties(I think its 91. That will save 500 odd MP salaries and expenses.Make the Lords all elected -by public subsrciption of names.
      • Jim 3 months ago
        And scrap the last vestiges of constituency representation? That's nearly as good as closed list proportional representation. Vote for a bill-board poster or tv puppet, cos that's as much as you'd know about who'd be governing you :O
    • CHRISTOPHER  •  Manchester, England  •  3 months ago
      Maybe we are moving from an imperfect democracy to a perfect media-ocracy .
      Too close to a recipe for mediocracy for me !
    • Jim  •  Maidenhead, England  •  3 months ago
      Jees, closed list proportional representation? Where you don't find out who you've voted for until after it's all over? The epitomy of cronyism, the lifeblood of corruption. And that's what Labour, the party of the people want? So much for democracy :O
    • Twain shall meet  •  London, England  •  3 months ago
      Most party politicians follow the adage of: I'm all for democracy provided you agree with us.

      There has been little or no comment about changing the entire dynamic of democracy.

      Why not simply scrap the House of Lords and allow the electorate to debate and vote electronically on each bill as presented to the people?
    • CHRISTOPHER  •  Manchester, England  •  4 months ago
      By my reckoning the combination of the elected commons, the house of lords, a free press and a constitutional monarchy means we can keep some sort of balance between power, influence, electoral appeal and personal / national loyalty. If we move over to a system where everyone is elected via spin doctors and other "populist" measures we get into the same sort of problems and power battles as they have with the US constitutional setup (i.e in many ways worse than ours in the UK).
    • Twain shall meet  •  London, England  •  3 months ago
      It is technically feasible to allow anyone eligible to vote to have the ability to discuss and vote on every issue. That would be real democracy. A starting point could be to replace the House of Lords in the longer term with a system that enabled the electorate to do that.
    • ALASDAIR  •  London, England  •  4 months ago
      I have a radical idea lets replace the lords with a random selection of the General Public who are selected in the same way as say Jurors and serve a one Month term with approximately 10% changing each month.
    • bluemist  •  3 months ago
      I am totally in favour of a second house, it ensures government cannot simply railroad everything through.
      However, the second house should not consist of past/failed politicians and political cronies/donors.
      The whole point surely is that the second house is non-partisan?
      I think the idea of a second house being made up of everyday folks is a good way forward.
      Failing that, the general public, and not the politicians, should decide who sits in the second house.
      People who have done great charitable works, served their communities, who have risen against all odds, etc.
    • isiah  •  London, England  •  3 months ago
      "Noblesse Oblige" that for so long motivated a section of the "aristocracy"? has , thanks to the ennobling of the common man, become an anachronism. Greed, self advancement and dubious morals have debased the "House of Lords"
    • wxyz  •  St Albans, England  •  4 months ago
      Removing hereditary peers and replacing them with elected politicians that tow the party line. The question is: what's the difference ?
    • June and Jim R  •  Glossop, England  •  4 months ago
      Lords? full of landowners far removed from struggling folks on a small wage why should they have a say in the countrys running in this modern century there was a time when they ruled the land but times have changed so why do they still have so much power over the commoner and the working man.? A change by electing some commoners would be a good advance in this century at least they would understand the problems the ordinary folks face day by day.
      we dont want millionaires at our head we want people who know what its like to survive and work towards a future. If Englands politics only have rich people at our head to decide for us then we are in a miserable condition and can only face ultimate defeat.

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