Brady: Killing Was An 'Existential Experience'

Ian Brady has referred to his torture and murder of children as "recreational killings" from which he derived an "existential experience".

Speaking at his mental health tribunal, the Moors murderer compared the crimes he committed in the 1960s to the acts of soldiers and politicians and said that a "criminal" would have "given a value to the person he is about to kill".

When asked what value he had got from his killing he replied: "Existential experience."

The 75-year-old, who had been speaking publicly at length for the first time since 1966, told the tribunal that he was not psychotic.

Brady is arguing that he should be allowed to be transferred from high-security Ashworth Hospital in Merseyside to prison on the grounds that he is not mentally ill.

Eleanor Grey QC, counsel for Ashworth, asked him if he accepted he was ill at the time he was transferred to Ashworth when he was said to have shown psychotic symptoms of hallucinations and delusions.

Giving evidence at Ashworth Hospital, where he has been held since 1985, he said that initially when he was in jail he copied the symptoms he saw on the prison's psychiatric wing so he would be diagnosed psychotic and be transferred.

He insinuated he had just been acting, as he referred to Constantin Stanislavski who created a set of techniques in the 20th Century, called method acting, which was used to create realistic performances. It was used by actors including Marlon Brando and Robert De Niro.

When asked to explain method acting, he said: "It's attempting to portray the heart and soul of the character you are trying to portray."

Brady, who has been on so-called hunger strike since 1999, has previously said he wants to starve himself to death in prison where he cannot be force fed.

Currently, he is fed through a tube in his nose, although the tribunal panel heard on Monday he is actually eating other foods and makes himself toast every morning.

Brady described his life behind bars, how he enjoys "eclectic, freewheeling conversation", how he studied German and psychology and how he walks up and down in his cell reciting Shakespeare and Plato.

Brady said he had "more freedom" in prison - he spent time in Durham, Parkhurst and Wormwood Scrubs. He remembered mixing with the Kray twins, the Great Train Robbers and various terrorists.

He also alluded to his time as a barber, when he claimed he would trim the beards of prison staff.

Brady made reference to his notoriety as a prisoner, saying the public and media are obsessed with the Moors murders case.

He said: "Why are they still talking about Jack the Ripper, after a century? It fascinates them so, the dramatic background, the fog, cobbled streets. The Moors is the same thing... Wuthering Heights, Hound Of The Baskervilles."

Sky's Tom Parmenter said: "He was asked his mental health which is crucial to the hearing because it is his claim that he should not be in a high-security hospital but instead an ordinary prison.

"He was asked about talking to himself in jail, and he said when he was in solitary confinement he would memorise the pages of Shakespeare or Plato and then recite them in his cell.

"He said if he drops a glasses case in a corridor and mutters to himself that would be seized by an opportunistic member of staff and used as evidence. But he also said at the tribunal 'Who doesn't talk to themselves?'"

His legal team says he has a severe narcissistic personality disorder but is not mentally ill and could be treated in prison rather than hospital.

But Ashworth says Brady is still chronically mentally ill and remains a paranoid schizophrenic who needs around-the-clock care.

He has refused medication and therapy for his mental disorders since 2000 as he is "wholly resistant" to any treatment and now tries to hide his mental illness, the tribunal panel was told earlier.

The last time Brady spoke so publicly was in court in Chester when he was convicted 47 years ago and jailed for life for three murders in the 1960s.

The hearing is being relayed to the press and public on TV screens at Manchester Civil Justice Centre and the judgment of the panel will be released at a later date yet to be fixed.

Brady and his partner, Myra Hindley, were convicted of luring children and teenagers to their deaths, with their victims sexually tortured before being buried on Saddleworth Moor, east of Manchester.

Brady was given life for the murders of John Kilbride, 12, Lesley Ann Downey, 10, and 17-year-old Edward Evans.

Hindley was convicted of killing Lesley Ann and Edward and shielding Brady after John's murder, and jailed for life.

Both later confessed to the murders of 16-year-old Pauline Reade - whose body was found in 1987 - and 12-year-old Keith Bennett whose body has not been discovered.

John Ainley was the solicitor for Winnie Johnson who died last year without ever finding her son Keith Bennett's remains.

Mr Ainley told Sky News: "There have been no words of remorse, it is the families of the children who were murdered that should be centre stage not Ian Brady."

"These five children were murdered, they were tortured, he had no compassion for them whatsoever."

"For him now just to talk about himself and to try and justify that in that sort of way really beggars belief."

Hindley died in hospital, still a prisoner, in November 2002 at the age of 60.