Post Office Inquiry - live: CEO Nick Read hints many feel former leader Paula Vennells not held to account
Post Office chief executive Nick Read has that there is a feeling within the Post Office that former leaders “appear not to have been held to account” in an apparent dig at his predecessor Paula Vennells.
Mr Read is being questioned for a second day at the Horizon IT scandal inquiry today.
He told the inquiry: “I think one of the themes that has emerged amongst colleagues still working within the organisation is that many of the leaders of the organisation - historically - who have appeared before this inquiry, appear not to have been held to account.”
He added that the investigation into his own conduct showed that “no one is above the law”.
Mr Read told the inquiry yesterday that he was told he didn’t need to dig into the past details of sub-postmasters’ prosecutions when he joined the company.
Mr Read oversaw the Post Office’s response to legal action brought by wronged sub-postmasters and their compensation. He is giving evidence for the rest of the week.
The Post Office Horizon IT scandal led to hundreds of postmasters being wrongly prosecuted for theft and false accounting due to discrepancies caused by IT bugs in the system.
Key Points
Who is Post Office chief executive Nick Read?
Nick Read: Post Office should not be involved in running compensation schemes
33 police investigations involving Post Offices in June this year
Nick Read: Post Office colleagues feel that previous leaders have not been held to account
Government minister ‘hoped Post Office chairman was discredited'
Welcome to day two of Nick Read’s evidence to the Horizon IT inquiry
09:58 , Holly Bancroft
Welcome to day two of CEO Nick Read’s evidence to the Horizon IT scandal inquiry.
Mr Read is due up at 10am this morning. He told the inquiry yesterday that he was not made aware of the “scale and enormity” of the Horizon IT scandal before taking the top job.
Mr Read joined long after the events which sparked the scandal, whereby more than 900 subpostmasters were prosecuted for stealing, based on incorrect information from an IT system known as Horizon.
But when he became chief executive in 2019, litigation between a group of 555 subpostmasters and the Post Office, in which the company agreed to pay £58m in compensation, was just coming to a head.
He said that, early into the role of chief executive, he was told by the Post Office’s general counsel Ben Foat: “I did not need to dig into the details of what had happened at Post Office in the past as this conduct had ended.”
Post Office boss told ‘not to dig into the past’, Horizon IT inquiry hears
Who is Post Office chief executive Nick Read?
09:59 , Holly Bancroft
Post Office chief executive Nick Read has been at the Post Office for five years. He is due to step down in March 2025 and has taken time away from his role to prepare for the Horizon IT inquiry.
Interim chief operating officer Neil Brocklehurst has been filling in as an acting chief executive.
Mr Read has previously appeared before MPs to defend his management of the Post Office. However in February, the business and trade committee expressed a lack of confidence in his leadership, accusing him of giving misleading evidence.
Over the course of the inquiry and parliamentary hearings, Mr Read’s evidence has often clashed with that of former Post Office chairman Henry Stauton.
Mr Read had been investigated over misconduct allegations but an external report, released earlier this year, cleared him of wrongdoing.
Nick Read: Post Office should not be involved in running compensation schemes
10:09 , Holly Bancroft
Chief executive Nick Read has told the Horizon IT inquiry that the Post Office should not have been involved in the compensation schemes for wronged postmasters.
On day two of his evidence to the inquiry, Mr Read is picking up a topic that was touched on yesterday. He told the inquiry that: “We have done everything that we can build independence into the schemes”.
But he added: “There was always going to be difficulty with the Post Office administering compensation because of the level and trust and confidence that many of the victims will have with the Post Office.”
33 police investigations involving Post Offices in June this year
10:27 , Holly Bancroft
22 police forces were carrying out investigations involving Post Offices across 33 police investigations in June this year, the inquiry has heard.
Notes from a meeting on the 26th June, written by the Post Office’s director of assurance and complex investigations John Bartlett, were shown to the inquiry.
The paper was titled ‘The passing of material to law enforcement’. It explained: “There are currently 22 police forces requesting or awaiting Horizon-based evidence across 33 police investigations. To provide this information A&CI [investigations team] will need to draw on Horizon data and often provide transaction analysis. The current approach is that Board will need to be approached in the majority of these matters as and when the data is able to be shared.”
The paper was asking to speed up the process of providing information to the police by bypassing the Board’s approval. It said that there were no longer any faults with the Horizon system data at this time.
The paper read: “Proactively and reactively supplied information will have differing profiles due to historic technology issues. The version of Horizon that was considered at fault in the Horizon IT scandal was replaced in October 2019. In 2020, known errors and bugs identified in the Horizon issues Judgement formed part of a review by KPMG of the system and found to not be prevalent in the system.”
Mr Read told the inquiry: “There was some surprise at the scale of the requests. I think we were of the opinion that it was in the ones and twos in terms of requests for this information. Therefore a bigger understanding of the picture was requested.”
Nick Read: I was surprised to learn that 22 police forces are carrying out investigations involving Post Offices
10:41 , Holly Bancroft
Nick Read has said that he was “surprised” at discovering in June that 22 police forces were carrying out investigations involving Post Offices.
Mr Read told the inquiry: “I was surprised at the number of law enforcement agencies that were engaging with us, and the scale of the 22 and the 33.
“It caused pause for thought, primarily because the team in A&CI [investigations team] is massively stretched.”
The Post Office’s internal investigations team were covering “both internal investigations of senior colleagues, assurance work on loss recovery and discrepancies, and cooperation with law enforcement.”
Mr Read said: “This felt like considerably large amounts of work and we wanted to make sure that it was being administered properly”.
Mr Read said he did not know what work had been done recently to make sure that the Horizon data that was being provided to the police was not faulty.
IT company Fujistu had previously raised concerns with Mr Read that the Horizon data might not be reliable even in 2024. The company’s CEO was raising concerns about the Post Office’s ongoing requests for Fujistu to cooperate with law enforcement investigations.
CEO admits wording of new contract for postmasters is ‘heavy-handed’ with talk of interviews under caution
10:57 , Holly Bancroft
The inquiry is examining the new contract for postmasters, which details the role of the Post Office’s investigations team.
The contract explains that the Post Office’s investigations team can interview postmasters under caution if they suspect a crime has been committed.
The contract explains: “The main job of the Investigation Division is to investigate, or help the police to investigate, criminal offences against the Post Office, British Telecommunications and the Department of National Savings, the Investigation Division does NOT enquire into matters where crime is not suspected.”
It goes on: “Although they comprise the minority of all Investigation Division crime investigations, there are many cases where the possible (or even direct suspicion) arises that persons employed on Post Office business may be involved. Officers of the Investigation Division conduct interviews about these suspected offences and they are required to observe the same code of conduct when obtaining evidence as that laid down for Police Officers.
“This provides for an officer investigating a criminal offence to question any person, whether suspected or not, from whom he thinks that useful information may be obtained. As soon as the Investigation Division officer has evidence which would afford reasonable ground for suspecting that a person has committed an offence, he must caution him before asking any questions about that offence.”
Chief executive Nick Read has admitted that the contract is “heavy-handed”, telling the inquiry: “I think the wording is heavy handed in terms of the way in which it is described. I don’t think it reflects the way that we conduct investigations.
“It’s not consistent with the way that the A&CI [investigations] team operate. It’s not consistent with the way that we support postmasters when they have issues.”
He admitted that the wording of the contract should be changed, explaining: “The language and the way that it is constructed is not helpful and not reflective of the way that the Post Office is operating today.”
Nick Read: It was peculiar we could never find where wronged postmasters' money had gone
11:28 , Holly Bancroft
Nick Read has said he was frustrated that the Post Office couldn’t get to the bottom of where money paid by wrong subpostmasters to the company had gone.
Many wrong subpostmasters dipped into their own savings to make up shortfalls that showed up on their accounts due to dodgy Horizon data.
Mr Read spoke about how the Post Office had employed a number of forensic accountants to get to the bottom of where this money had gone.
He told the inquiry: “It seemed peculiar to me that we were unable to get a fix, even with caveats as to its level of accuracy, so that we could at least in part give people some confidence that we understood the size and scale of this issue or got to the bottom of it.”
Nick Read quizzed about role of retail director Tracy Marshall
12:11 , Holly Bancroft
Mr Read is being quizzed about why Retail Engagement Director Tracy Marshall is a corporate witness for the Post Office, when she was previously implicated in problems with remote access.
An email emerged during the inquiry showing Ms Marshall had knowledge that postmasters’ accounts could be access remotely back in 2011, at the heart of the Horizon scandal.
Despite this Ms Marshall is a corporate witness on behalf of the Post Office to the inquiry.
Mr Read was asked whether he thought there was a conflict when “she is on one view implicated in the remote access issue, and yet she is a corporate witness for the Post Office.”
Mr Read explained: “ The issue emerged in the Summer. This was the last time the inquiry was sitting, and these emails emerged.
“We invited Tracy to step back from her day to day role. She was very clear that she was unaware of remote access being actioned. She understood it was possible but not aware it was actioned in any way.”
Mr Read continued: “A line manager suggested to her that she take a step back from postmaster facing activity, so that confidence could be retained.”
Ms Marshall is due to give evidence to the Post Office inquiry in coming weeks.
Government minister ‘hoped Post Office chairman was discredited'
12:24 , Holly Bancroft
Former business minister Kevin Hollinrake told Post Office CEO Nick Read that he wanted former chairman Henry Staunton to “be discredited”, according to a note of a meeting shown to the Horizon IT inquiry.
A note of a meeting between Mr Hollinrake and Mr Read dated 29th February 2024 was shown to the inquiry.
Mr Hollinrake, who was at the time a minister in the Tory government, was recorded as saying about Mr Staunton: “I think the select committee were weak with him, apart from Anthony Higginbottom. Sorry it was so messy. Keen to support in anyway we can, to make sure we get passed this. Hope he’s discredited. Anything else you think we need to do to make it easier?”
Mr Read confirmed to the inquiry that this was referring to the former chairman Henry Staunton.
Mr Staunton and Mr Read have often been at odds with each other in their evidence both to the business select committee and to the Post Office inquiry.
Mr Staunton was sacked by Business secretary Kemi Badenoch in January 2024. He appeared before MPs on 27th Febuary 2024, in which he claimed he was the victim of a smear campaign.
He also claimed that a bullying inquiry was ongoing into Nick Read. Mr Read has now said that an inquiry into any misconduct has exonerated him.
Nick Read: Post Office colleagues feel that previous leaders have not been held to account
12:42 , Holly Bancroft
Chief executive Nick Read has told the inquiry that there is a feeling within the Post Office that former leaders “appear not to have been held to account”.
In apparent reference to former Post Office CEO Paula Vennells, he told the inquiry: “I think one of the themes that has emerged amongst colleagues still working within the organisation is that many of the leaders of the organisation - historically - who have appeared before this inquiry, appear not to have been held to account.
“If indeed they were aware of and understood other issues associated with Horizon in the past, I think there was very definitely a view amongst the bigger community that people were going about doing their job and we needed to be sensitive to the fact that people were going about doing their job to the best of their ability and with what they knew.”
12:52 , Holly Bancroft
The inquiry has now taken a break over lunch. It will be back at 1:45pm for the second half of Mr Read’s evidence.
Government did not see postmasters’ pay as a priority, inquiry hears
14:00 , Holly Bancroft
The inquiry has returned after the lunch breach and Mr Read is being asked about the government’s priorities for the Post Office in 2023/ 24.
The inquiry has been shown a letter from minister Kevin Hollinrake to chairman Henry Staunton on 29th June 2023, titled strategic priorities for 23/24.
In the list of priorities set out by the government, the level of pay for postmasters is not included as a concern.
Mr Read was asked why this is, given that recent surveys of postmasters show their number one concern is the level of their pay.
He told the inquiry: “I assume they [the government] take it as given as that being the top priority of the job.”
Mr Hollinrake’s letter lists the government’s first priority as “effective financial management and performance, including management of legal costs, to ensure medium term viability”.
He goes on to list the requirement to “maintain stringent cost control”.
When pushed on whether this is in conflict with any desire to increase remuneration of subposters, Mr Read said: “Potentially”.
The inquiry had previously heard that Mr Read had received over £750,000 a year for his CEO role and had been pushing to increase this to over £1.1m.
Postmasters play an important role in their communities, Nick Read says
14:23 , Holly Bancroft
Postmasters need to be recognised for the important role that they play within their communities, Nick Read has said.
The inquiry is now considering the future of the Post Office and the nature of its relationship with the government.
Mr Read told the inquiry: “When you look at the role that postmasters play in communities up and down the country, when you look at the level of trust between communities and postmasters, it is quite extraordinary.”
He added that “postmasters should be recognised for that contribution, where they currently aren’t.”
Mr Read added that the Post Office have been asking the government for a clearer strategy for their future. “There is a desire to have a long-term strategy for the Post Office from which everything else will flow,” he said.
Top four questions CEO Nick Read says he is asked by postmasters
14:33 , Holly Bancroft
Chief executive Nick Read has revealed the top four questions that are asked of him when he visits Post Offices today.
He told the inquiry the top questions from postmasters were:
What are we doing for remuneration? [postmasters’ pay]
What are we doing by way of innovation, what other products can we sell?
What is happening to the brand as a consequence of the scandal?
What is happening to my long-term investment in a Post Office?
Nick Read: People can take confidence from the fact that my conduct was thoroughly investigated
14:42 , Holly Bancroft
Chief executive Nick Read has said that people would “take confidence” from the fact that he was investigated for misconduct.
He told the Horizon IT inquiry that the investigation into his conduct showed that “no one is above the law in the Post Office.” He explained: “Those whistleblowing allegations that were made against me were followed through with a fairly comprehensive investigation.
“None of the allegations, I may hasten to add, were upheld. But colleagues would have taken confidence that it was possible to investigate the chief executive and the chairman, irrespective of what else was going on in the organisation and that those went through to their natural conclusions.”
Nick Read says postmasters’ deaths before receiving compensation are ‘terrible’
15:22 , Holly Bancroft
Chief executive Nick Read has been confronted with statistics that show that 263 subpostmasters have died since being wrongly accused of stealing money.
Of these 263 people, 251 died before receiving compensation, according to freedom of information data obtained by The Times.
Mr Read said it was a “terrible statistic”. When told that 251 of these people had never received an apology before their death, Mr Read said it was a “terrible situation”.
He was asked by a lawyer representing subpostmasters and their families: “Has the Post Office made any study as to why the process is so slow? And as to whether the lawyers are responsible for the delay?”
Mr Read replied: “We are acutely conscious... We spend a lot of time trying to work out, how do we improve and speed up the process. That is a constant point of conversation between myself and the minister and others.”
'We haven’t provided speedy compensation to wronged postmasters’
15:42 , Holly Bancroft
Chief executive Nick Read has told the inquiry that the Post Office “hadn’t lived up” to promises to give wronged postmasters speedy compnsation.
He said: “Speedy and fair redress is essential to protect the longterm interests of the Post Office and obviously the relationship between the Post Office and the victims of the scandal. We haven’t lived up to that and that is of deep regret.”
Read: Government is using Post Office as a shield from criticism
15:51 , Holly Bancroft
Post Office chief executive Nick Read has agreed that the government is using the Post Office as shield from criticism.
He was asked by a lawyer representing wronged postmasters if “the government is using the Post Office as a shield or fire curtain”. Mr Read responded: “That could be a description, yes.”
When asked if the government is able to “detach themselves from the criticism of the Post Office”, Mr Read said: “That’s true”. He added: “They are one step removed but at the same time hold the levers of funding.”
Mr Read is being asked about the delays to compensation for wronged postmasters and the meagre amounts offered.
Mr Read said he did believe that the government have now “put their mouth where there money is [sic]”. He said he “didn’t believe that the government have been tight with the purse strings”, but he acknowledged that the process had been “overly bureaucratic”.
16:19 , Holly Bancroft
Thanks for following along with today’s blog. Nick Read’s evidence has now ended and he will be back for his final day of testimony tomorrow.
See below blog posts for a record of today’s evidence.