Trump-Russia: Giuliani says 'truth isn't truth' in Mueller investigation as president hits out at probe

Donald Trump’s lawyer Rudy Giuliani has claimed that “truth isn’t truth” as he tried to explain his concerns about the president testifying for Special Counsel Robert Mueller.

Mr Giuliani suggested that Mr Trump should not testify as part of Mr Mueller’s investigation into Russian election meddling and any possible collusion with Trump campaign officials over fears that the president could be trapped into a lie that would lead to a perjury charge.

The former New York City major insisted he would not be “rushed” into making his client available for something that could become a chargeable offence under the law.

“So what I have to tell you is, look, I’m not going to be rushed into having him testify so he gets trapped into perjury,” Mr Giuliani told Chuck Todd on NBC’s Meet the Press on Sunday morning. He dismissed the idea of Mr Trump having foreknowledge of Russia’s efforts, or potentially obstructing the inquiry.

“When you tell me that, you know, he should testify because he’s going to tell the truth and he shouldn’t worry, well that’s so silly because it’s somebody’s version of the truth. Not the truth,” Mr Giuliani added.

“Truth is truth,” Mr Todd responded. “No, it isn’t truth,” Mr Giuliani said. “Truth isn’t truth. The President of the United States says, “I didn’t…”

A startled Mr Todd answered: “Truth isn’t truth?” to which Mr Giuliani responded: “No, no.”

Mr Giuliani also said that a 2016 meeting at Trump Tower between top Trump campaign officials and a Russian lawyer could not be evidence of collusion even though the intention of the meeting was to get damaging information on Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton.

"It turned out to be a meeting about another subject and it was not pursued at all. Any meeting in regards to getting information about your opponent is something any candidate's staff would take,“ Mr Giuliani said.

“The president of the United States wasn't at that meeting, he didn't know about that meeting, he found out about it after. By the time he found out about it, it was nothing. If this is their case for collusion, good luck Mueller.”

The meeting in question took place at Trump Tower in June of 2016, when Donald Trump Jr, Trump son-in-law Jared Kushner and then-campaign chairman Paul Manafort met with a Russian lawyer with the understanding that she would pass along damaging information about Ms Clinton, Mr Trump's opponent in the 2016 presidential election.

Mr Giuliani reiterated the president’s position that he didn’t discuss his former National Security Advisor, Michael Flynn with the FBI director he ultimately fired, James Comey. The latter, however, has said the opposite, and Mr Mueller is said to be looking into the issue for any possible obstruction of justice.

“Comey says, ‘You did talk about it.’ So tell me what the truth is?” Mr Giuliani asked.

Mr Todd said that the exchange would become a “bad meme” online, and it did not take long for the mockery to begin on social media. In response to Mr Giuliani‘s remarks, Merriam-Webster tweeted a link to the definition of the word truth in its dictionary.

The bizarre exchange was not the first time Mr Giuliani has found himself facing ridicule for his statements on television, particularly in relation to a possible interview between the president and Mr Mueller. In May, Mr Giuliani told The Washington Post about the Mueller investigation: “They may have a different version of the truth than we do.”

Earlier this month, Mr Trump’s legal team, led by Mr Giuliani, replied to special counsel Mr Mueller’s proposal for terms of a possible presidential interview, but would not disclose the details of the answer other than it involved a counter-offer.

Mr Trump tweeted on Sunday that he had “nothing to hide” from the Mueller investigation. He has previously said he is willing to talk to the special counsel, but his legal team has advised against it.

The president also denounced The New York Times for a story saying White House counsel Don McGahn had cooperated extensively with Mr Mueller.

“I allowed him and all others to testify – I didn’t have to,” Trump said in a tweet. Trump said the newspaper made it seem like Mr McGahn had turned on the president – as White House counsel John Dean had in the Watergate investigation of former president Richard Nixon – “when in fact it is just the opposite.”

Citing a dozen current and former White House officials and others briefed on the matter, the Times said on Saturday that Mr McGahn had shared information, some of which the investigators would not have known about, in at least three voluntary interviews that totalled 30 hours over the past nine months..

On Saturday evening, Mr McGahn’s lawyer confirmed the White House counsel had cooperated with Mr Mueller’s team. “Mr McGahn answered the Special Counsel team’s questions fulsomely and honestly,” William Burck said, explaining the president did not ask Mr McGahn to refrain from discussing any matters.

Mr Giuliani told NBC said Mr McGahn’s cooperation would help bolster Mr Trump’s claims that he did nothing wrong.

“The president encouraged him to testify, is happy that he did, is quite secure that there is nothing in the testimony that will hurt the president,” Mr Giuliani said. He then accused Mr Mueller’s team of “leaking” the information to the press, claiming it had to be them as Mr Trump’s team would not leak.

Mr Dean, who has criticised Mr Trump in recent years, voiced support for Mr McGahn. “McGahn is doing right!” he wrote on Twitter.

Mr Trump denies his campaign colluded with Russia and has repeatedly attacked the probe as illegitimate.

On Sunday, he compared Mr Mueller with 1950s-era senator Joseph McCarthy, whose anti-communist crusade eventually led to his censure by the Senate.

“Study the late Joseph McCarthy, because we are now in a period with Mueller and his gang that make Joseph McCarthy look like a baby! Rigged Witch Hunt!” Mr Trump wrote on Twitter.