Wales Online election hustings sees politicians clash over Vaughan Gething, HS2 and steel

Wales big three parties with seats in Westminster clashed in an election debate covering HS2, Tata Steel, the future of devolution and Vaughan Gething. The Conservatives' David TC Davies, Labour's Jo Stevens and Plaid Cymru's Liz Saville Roberts discussed the above and more in an online election debate, chaired by WalesOnline's Welsh affairs editor Will Hayward.

Things became heated as the Tories were pushed on their record in government and Labour questioned over Vaughan Gething's donations and the gaps between its Welsh and UK parties. Plaid Cymru had questions to answer over their uncosted plans for steel nationalisation and the party's reaction to a report saying it had failed to implement a zero-tolerance policy to sexual harassment.

Here are some of the key points:

More tension over Gething

The parties were asked whether voters can trust them, in light of Vaughan Gething's refusal to step down following a no-confidence vote after he accepted donations totalling £200,000 from a man convicted of environmental offences and the emerging story of Conservative candidates allegedly betting on the election.

Shadow secretary of state for Wales Jo Stevens said that the vote of no confidence was non-binding and it was open to the Tories and Plaid Cymru to table a binding vote, stressing that Mr Gething had "broken no rules." She cited Labour's pledge to create an independent ethics and integrity commission to deal with UK ministers breaking rules.

Liz Saville Roberts, Plaid Cymru's leader in Westminster, expressed "deep regret" over the findings of Prosiect Pawb, a report which said its leadership had failed to implement a zero-tolerance approach to sexual harassment. She said Adam Price took responsibility by stepping down over it, and said Plaid implemented the vast majority of its recommendations.

Things reached boiling point when she asked Jo Stevens: "Jo, did Vaughan Gething show good judgement?" Ms Stevens responded: "Vaughan Gething followed the rules. He did not break any rules and what we've seen throughout the last 14 years are breaking of rules by the Conservative government. And don't cast aspersions when your own party has been in such difficult circumstances."

Secretary of State for Wales David TC Davies said he was "not going to defend" the actions of Craig Williams, a Welsh candidate who reportedly placed a bet on the general election. Mr Davies said he had not made any bets on the election himself. Our debate was held before the Tories dropped their support for Williams, who said in a video apology on X that he made an "error of judgement, not an offence").

Mr Davies also cited his own efforts to uphold standards in the Wales Office by scrapping the ministerial car (although he does sometimes use a taxi), travelling by economy class on public transport and banning alcohol from the building.

READ MORE: Conservative Senedd Member investigated for betting on July General Election date

READ MORE: Vaughan Gething flew upper class and stayed in luxury hotel for two-hour Tata meeting in India

HS2 'missing millions'

Both Jo Stevens and David TC Davies made statements in the debate relating to HS2 and the fact Wales will not be receiving a full Barnett consequential. Billions of pounds has and will be spent in England on HS2. Even with the cancellation of the more northern part of the line, based on the current phase one cost of HS2 (2019 prices) the total spend will be about £66bn (these are ball park figures).

Scotland and Northern Ireland will automatically get a consequential from this. But because the UK Government decided to class it as an “England and Wales project” Wales won't - despite the fact that nothing was built here.

When challenged about this, Jo Stevens questioned the idea that Wales was missing out on billions, instead claiming that the Welsh Government estimates that the figure if there was reclassification would be about £350m.

Ms Stevens claimed: “What we do know is that Rishi Sunak has bust the whole project and the budget and there will be no more HS2 built. If we form the next government we will have no certainty on the existing costs that would be inherited meaning that we can't make commitments now to reclassifying HS2.”

It's not clear what Ms Stevens is basing this figure on. Rebecca Evans, the Welsh Government finance minister, herself estimated that Wales will have already missed out on £270m just by the end of this year. The money is planned to continue into pour into HS2 in England until 2041 with the Welsh Government estimating Wales will be missing out on a further £70m a year throughout that time meaning the total will be over £1bn even on the most conservative of estimates.

It's also worth noting here that the only part of HS2 that Rishi Sunak has scrapped is the second phase from Birmingham to Manchester. The first phase is still being built and will continue to 2041 at a cost of more than £60bn, which is sucking up a huge part of the rail transport budget.

Ms Evans said in her evidence to the committee: "As a result of these changes and lack of comparability with HS2, the Welsh Government’s overall comparability with the Department for Transport (DfT) has fallen by more than a half since 2015. Increases to the DfT budget now provide less than half the benefit to the Wales budget that they would have done with the previous level of comparability."

David TC Davies was also keen to defend the decision to deny Wales HS2 money. He used the example that Welsh people will be able to use HS2 “when they go to England”. This ignores the obvious fact that Welsh people can use English hospitals when in England but there is still a health consequential from English health spending. It also ignores the precedent set by Crossrail where the construction of the Elizabeth line led to a rail consequential for Wales.

Differing approaches to Tata

The parties' plans for the Port Talbot steelworks came into focus. David TC Davies said the UK Government had agreed "the only deal on the table," with Tata to avoid the total closure of the steelworks and said the UK Government's £500m grant had saved jobs in Port Talbot and the supply chain.

Jo Stevens said Labour's aims to keep a blast furnace running while an arc furnace is constructed were credible (although Tata previously rejected it when unions suggested it) and said the UK Government had "failed to maximise the use of Welsh and UK steel in the pitiful number of infrastructure projects they have undertaken".

She said Labour has been meeting with Tata and has pledged a further £3bn to the steel industry. Liz Saville Roberts refused to put an exact figure on Plaid's plans to nationalise steel but said: "The question is what is the cost if we don't... as things stand we will have no security of supply... we need to be able to keep this supply going. Nationalisation looks to be the only way of doing it... that will have to be negotiated with the company itself."

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The future of devolution

When asked whether it was right that Wales is the only UK nation without control over its own policing, David TC Davies said: "I'd like to see the Welsh Labour government delivering on the public services which it is responsible for. I don't think there can be any argument for giving more power to the Senedd at the moment."

Liz Saville Roberts said Wales needed full control of policing, courts, prisons and probation, adding: "It seems to me Labour has been very happy to have devolved the powers to Wales back in 1999 to give us the means just to manage poverty - but never really to change our communities."

Jo Stevens said: "People don't feel safe and our justice system has ground to a halt... I understand why, if you're looking at it through the lens of the last 14 years, you would say this needs fixing. But I - we - don't think the fix is to devolve and go through a whole process of tearing up the Home Office and the Ministry of Justice." Instead she cited Labour's promises which include 13,000 new neighbourhood officers, specialist rape units, more prosecutors and more prison places.

On the fact both Jeremy Miles and Vaughan Gething had called for devolution of policing in their leadership campaigns, she said: "Welsh Labour, Vaughan Gething as First Minister and his government, have signed up to [the manifesto]."