Covid Inquiry latest: Lord Sedwill joked he wanted Matt Hancock sacked 'to save lives and protect the NHS'

The Covid-19 Inquiry is hearing from Lord Mark Sedwill, the former head of the civil service who departed Government amid reported clashes with Dominic Cummings.

The former cabinet secretary is appearing after explosive claims surrounding his time in office resurfaced during the evidence of other key figures.

Lord Sedwill, a former diplomat, was running the civil service when the pandemic struck but resigned in September 2020.

He said the then-Prime Minister Boris Johnson was worried about a “political overreaction” to the pandemic, warning a cabinet meeting in February 2020 of "the economic damage of a crisis”.

When asked whether this amounted to underplaying the threat of Covid, Lord Sedwill said Mr Johnson was speaking at a time when ministers had been told the worst-case scenario was unlikely.

More than 230,000 people have died from Covid-19 since the fatal virus struck in early 2020.

Follow latest updates below

Key Points

• A summary of the main points from today's hearing

• Who is Lord Mark Sedwill?

• Lord Sedwill apologises for 'distress caused by chicken pox comment'

• Administration described as 'brutal and useless'

• Lord Sedwill joked about wanting Hancock sacked 'to save lives and protect the NHS'

Good morning

08:45 , Jordan King

Good morning and welcome to The Evening Standard's live coverage of the Covid inquiry.

Today's hearing will hear from former Cabinet Secretary and Head of the Civil Service Lord Mark Sedwill and MP Justin Tomlinson, who used to be the Minister of State for Disabled People, Health and Work.

Lord Sedwill will appear between 10am and 1pm, before Mr Tomlinson speaks between 2pm and 4.30pm.

Who is Lord Mark Sedwill?

09:08 , Jordan King

Lord Sedwill was the country's most senior civil servant when the pandemic struck but he resigned in September 2020, after 30 years in the service.

His political career includes roles as ambassador to Afghanistan, Nato Senior Civilian Representative and Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) political director.

As Permanent Secretary, Lord Sedwill has helped the British government tackle the fallout of several crises.

These include:

• the department’s handling of allegations about paedophile activity between the 1970s and 1990s

• the fall-out of the Government’s controversial eBorders programme

• responding to the poisoning of the Skripals in Salisbury in 2018

Read more about Lord Sedwill, who was also a key player in Brexit preperations, here.

Lord Sedwill's involvement in the Government's Covid response

09:15 , Jordan King

Dubbed the ultimate “securocrat”, Lord Sedwill was already the civil service’s highest-ranking official when Boris Johnson stepped into Downing Street in 2019.

When the pandemic broke out, he played a role in helping Johnson establish a national response to the outbreak.

The senior civil servant also made headlines at the time when it emerged that he had been working from home after contracting coronavirus, although No 10 hasn’t revealed that he’d been diagnosed.

Lord Sedwill also faced criticisms from the press about his handling of the coronavirus outbreak.

In 2020, he stepped down from his role, with reports suggesting he also walked away with a  £248,000 payout as "compensation." Reports suggested that he had clashed with the PM’s chief adviser, Dominic Cummings.

In an interview after leaving the role, Lord Sedwill told the BBC that Cumming’s Covid breach “was a mistake - whether everyone should quit every time they make a mistake, I don't think is right”.

He added: “But it clearly undermined the government's coherent narrative about people following the rules.”

A recap of what the inquiry has already heard about Lord Sedwill

09:16 , Jordan King

Lord Sedwill has come up in previous evidence multiple times.

Last week, Boris Johnson's former chief adviser Mr Cummings told the inquiry that Lord Sedwill losing his job "set off a kind of bomb across the whole system".

Mr Cummings said he had "begged" the then-prime minister not to effectively sack the careercivil servant, despite using obscenities to describe him in WhatsApp messages.

Lord Sedwill was also at the centre of allegations made by the Vote Leave strategist about a plan toencourage people to hold the equivalent of "chicken pox parties" to promote herd immunity.

A WhatsApp message from Mr Cummings, dated March 12 2020, in which he complained: "Sedwill babbling about chickenpox god f****** help us", was shown to the inquiry last week.

Lord Sedwill left his job after criticism from the former adviser, who said the official "hasn't a scooby whats going on".

On Tuesday, the inquiry heard Lord Sedwill's replacement, Simon Case, complained to his predecessor that people working in No 10 were "mad" and "poisonous" as he prepared for the role.

Before he was appointed Cabinet Secretary, Mr Case told Lord Sedwill: "These people are so mad. Not poisonous towards me (yet), but they are just madly self-defeating."

He said many "top-drawer people" he had askedto replace No 10 official Tom Shinner "refused to come because of the toxic reputation of his operation".

Lord Sedwill has begun giving evidence

10:18 , Jordan King

Lord Sedwill has just started giving evidence to inquiry lawyer Hugo Keith KC.

So far, he has laid out his responsibilities in his former role.

He has also explained that he no longer has the mobile phone used during the pandemic nor any of its data backed up - for national security reasons.

Lord Sedwill 'had to remind Boris Johnson to include Cabinet in decision-making'

10:39 , Jordan King

Lord Sedwill said he had concerns the top ministers were being sidelined by then-Prime Minister Boris Johnson.

He said did not believe the Cabinet was being as "fully participative" in key decisions.

"I did need to remind him of the importance of involving Cabinet colleagues not just in the formal decision but formulation of that decision," he told the inquiry.

He also spoke about the "question of bandwidth" regarding his holding of both the role of top civil servant and national security adviser, saying there was, but that this "would be true of either of these jobs in any event".

Questioned by Hugo Keith KC over whether in retrospect it was unwise, he cited the intensity of the period during the Brexit negotiations: "I think it made sense in the circumstances of the time."

He went on to say that the arrival of Boris Johnson's administration was like an opposition party coming into power because of Brexit.

Lord Sedwill said there was a "question of bandwidth" on him holding both roles

10:54 , Jordan King

When Lord Sedwill started giving evidence, he was asked about whether there was a "question of bandwidth" regarding his holding of both the role of top civil servant and national security adviser.

He said that there was, but that this "would be true of either of these jobs in any event".

He said that he delegated some aspects of the role, adding: "It was never intended to be a permanent arrangement, it seemed appropriate at the time."

Questioned by Hugo Keith KC over whether in retrospect it was unwise, he cited the intensity of the period during the Brexit negotiations: "I think it made sense in the circumstances of the time."

Boris Johnson's arrival to Downing Street 'was like opposition party'

10:56 , Jordan King

Lord Sedwill said that the arrival of Boris Johnson's administration was like an opposition party coming into power.

"Overall, in a sense, it was more like an opposition party coming into power after a general election rather than a government who had been in power for 10 years," he told the Covid hearing.

He said it was "because of the nature of the Brexit process and the change of personalities Mr Johnson brought in when he became prime minister".

Asked about the experience in the administration, he named Michael Gove and Matt Hancock as among the "very experienced senior ministers" still in government.

He said the "primary focus" was on Brexit and Mr Johnson's 2019 manifesto in the early period of 2020.

Possibility of Covid leaving China was seen as 'one in 10' possibility in January 2020

11:02 , Jordan King

While discussing the Government's Cobra meeting on January 29, Lord Sedwill said Prof Chris Whitty only put the possibility of "worst-case scenario" that the disease's spread "was not limited to China and there would be a pandemic like scenario with the UK impacted" at one in 10.

By the end of February, it was one in five.

Lord Sedwill pressed on his comments that 'stupid decisions' were being taken

11:16 , Jordan King

Hugo Keith KC showed Lord Sedwill a WhatsApp conversation where he described potential decisions as "stupid".

In a text, Lord Sedwill said: "600K deaths? That's twice the number I was given yesterday. We almost ended up with stupid decisions being taken in an informal meeting."

Lord Sedwill told the inquiry he cannot remember the details of this exchange with Chris Wormald, permanent secretary at the Department of Health in early February.

But he went on to say he thinks his concerns were about worst case death toll numbers moving around too much.

He said: "This is a very brief WhatsApp exchange where I'm clearly expressing some frustration, I genuinely have no recollection of what those decisions might've been.

"They might have been significant decisions, they might have been insignificant decisions."

Lord Sedwill pressed on 'too much focus on the reasonable worst case'

11:19 , Jordan King

Lord Sedwill said there was "too much focus on the reasonable worst-case scenario and not 'here's what I think will happen'."

When Mr Keith put it to Lord Sedwill that the "dividing line" between these two things was blurred, Lord Sedwill agreed.

Boris Johnson warned of 'political overreaction'

11:35 , Jordan King

The then-Prime Minister is quoted as saying the Government needs to stay "measured in its response" in a cabinet meeting on February 6, 2020.

Mr Johnson said: "Often the economic damage of a crisis came from political overreaction rather than the problem itself.”

Mr Keith asked Lord Sedwill if Mr Johnson was underplaying the threat from the virus - Lord Sedwill answered that the cabinet was being told the worst-case scenario was unlikely.

Lord Sedwill being questioned about Covid action plan

11:52 , Jordan King

The Government published its Covid action plan in early March.

KLast week, Lord Sedwill's deputy Helen MacNamara said that this was "an extraordinary document given that so many of the assertions about how well prepared we were turned out to be wrong only weeks later".

Lord Sedwill agreed with this comment.

Sedwill 'expected' work on Covid to continue while Boris Johnson was on holiday in February 2020

11:57 , Jordan King

Mr Keith said "the rate of work seemed to slow down" when Mr Johnson took a 10-day holiday in February 2020.

But Lord Sedwill said he would have expected work to continue.

Warnings about virus 'should have been higher', Lord Sedwill accepts

11:58 , Jordan King

Lord Sedwill conceded that by the end of February levels of alarm inside the Government, given official warnings about the imminent crisis, "should have been" higher.

"It's hard looking back to recall quite how extraordinary were the measures we later took. They were unconscionable at the time. And, therefore, I think your point about this instinctive human reaction is true.

"I think it was also the case at the end of February the number of cases in the UK was - on the data available - still very small.

"One can understand how non-experts not familiar with exponential movement might have misunderstood the pace at which the disease was moving."

He acknowledged that Mr Johnson might have shared that optimism bias.

"He is an optimistic person," he told the hearing.

Lack of whole government plan to tackle Covid was 'very serious flaw'

12:08 , Jordan King

Lord Sedwill explained how there was no sectoral plan to deal with the pandemic.

He said this was a "very serious flaw" which resulted in the Government having to take "extraordinary action at speed" to work to try and protect parts of the country from Covid.

'We're not running a dictatorship here' - Sedwill told Cummings

12:12 , Jordan King

During an email exchange with Dominic Cummings, where the former aide suggested meeting in the Cabinet room chaired by himself, or Lee Cain, to "answer questions properly" for Mr Johnson at 9am.

Lord Sedwill responded by saying: "We're not running a dictatorship here and the PM is not taking nationally significant decisions with a bunch of Number 10 Spads (special advisers) and no ministers, no operational experts and no scientists.

"If necessary, I will take over the 8.15am slot and chair a daily meeting myself."

Mr Keith put it to Lord Sedwill that he was more concerned with the correct processes, rather than urgently dealing with the pandemic, but Lord Sedwill rejected this, arguing that his email reveals how he feels about collective government.

Lord Sedwill asked about "chicken pox parties" comment

12:22 , Jordan King

Mr Keith said he had to asked Lord Sedwill about claims he had suggested "chicken pox parties" to promote herd immunity

A WhatsApp message from Mr Cummings, dated March 12 2020, in which he complained: "Sedwill babbling about chicken pox god f****** help us", was shown to the inquiry last week.

Lord Sedwell answered: "I should say, at no point, did I believe that coronavirus was only of the same seriousness as chicken pox. I knew it was a much more serious disease, that was not the point I was trying to make.

"And as soon as I realised, I think from Ben Warner’s reaction, that that’s what he thought I was suggesting, I dropped it – because I realised the analogy was causing confusion."

He went on to explain: "I was essentially trying to address this question we touched on several times – which was the judgement that it was inevitable that the virus would spread through the population.

"And what I was trying to examine was: Was there a way of managing that, given its highly differntial impact, that ensured it spread through those for whom the disease was likely to be unpleasant rather than dangerous and we could quarantine and shield those for whom it would be dangerous?"

Lord Sedwill apologises for 'distress caused by chicken pox comment'

12:25 , Jordan King

After explaining what he meant with the comment, Lord Sedwill added: "If I may, out of respect to the families: These were privateexchanges and I certainly did not expect them to become public.

"I understand how the particular interpretation that has beenput on it that it must have come across that someone in my role is bothheartless and thoughtless about this and I’m genuinely am neither.

"But I do understand the distress that must have caused and Iapologise for that because it certainly wouldn’t have been my intention and I wasn’t the one who made it public."

'Possible' that Lord Sedwill was 'slower to appreciate' the seriousness of the pandemic

12:32 , Jordan King

When Mr Keith asked Lord Sedwill if he was "slower to appreciate the terrible predicament that the ocuntry was in", he asnwered that this is "possible" but added it is also possible he had only "created that impression".

He explained that he was not at a meeting when the Government shifted its position from what it called "Plan A" to "Plan B".

"I felt I had to provide leadership to a system that was at the edge of panic at that point and I didn't have the luxery - even in private - saying: 'We're doomed, the system is broken, everyone is useless'.

"Because even if I had said that in private, it would have spread across the system and risked causing panic."

He went on to say he saw his job as an obligation to "stay calm and project confidence that we would find a way through this".

Sedwill accepts 'stay at home' order could have been given earlier

12:37 , Jordan King

When being questioned on whether the "soft lockdown", where people were given a "stay at home" order on March 16 should have come in earlier, Lord Sedwill said it would have had a "positive effect on casualties".

Mr Keith asked if it was possible a decision like this could have avoided the need to go into a full lockdown and Lord Sedwill answered he is "highly sceptical" a lockdown could have been circumvented completely.

Covid Inquiry breaks

13:08 , Miriam Burrell

The Covid Inquiry has taken a break for lunch.

It will return around 2pm to hear evidence from MP Justin Tomlinson, the former minister of state for disabled people, health and work.

'Genius' to exclude scientists from meeting with Johnson, Sunak

13:55 , Miriam Burrell

The hearing was shown an exchange dated May 22 between then permanent secretary at No10 Simon Case and Lord Sedwill, in which the former said it was "genius" to exclude Sir Patrick Vallance and Chris Whitty from a meeting with Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak.

Mr Case wrote: “Your call about not including Patrick and Chris was genius – it removed that dynamic.”

Setting out plans to loosen some restrictions, he said that Sir Patrick was “v happy” with it.

Lord Sedwill rejected any suggestion the pair were excluded over their views on the need to take an extremely cautious approach to relaxing pandemic rules.

He pointed to the fact Sir Patrick was apparently happy with it.

“My presumption is that we would have done a lot of – probably Simon – would have done a lot of work in advance of the meeting between the prime minister and chancellor to make sure that whatever was on the table was acceptable to the experts.

“This was just a question of managing a meeting of that kind where the prime minister and chancellor had came to it in different positions.

“So, it was just about managing the dynamics of an informal meeting.”

Covid Inquiry resumes

13:56 , Miriam Burrell

After lunch, the Covid Inquiry is continuing to hear evidence from Lord Mark Sedwill, the former head of the civil service.

MP Justin Tomlinson, the former minister of state for disabled people, health and work, will be up next.

Lord Sedwill 'recognises' negative feelings about Boris Johnson

14:30 , Jordan King

Mr Keith asked Lord Sedwill whether he agreed with previously heard feelings about "Boris Johnson's propensity to oscillate, to be unable to manage a cohesive team and to direct government machinery consistently and effectively".

Lord Sedwill said: "I recognise them but I wouldn't express them that way myself and indeed I think there is a separte point here, which is in essence a question for me:

"Part of my job was to build around any PM a set of mechanisms them enabled them to make decisions and then for those decisions to be enacted effectively.

"And I certainly didn't think it would have been responsible to say the PM's way of working isn't effective in these circumstances and then throw my hands up - it was my job to make it work."

'Sorry reflection on the workings of government'

14:34 , Jordan King

While Mr Keith and Lord Sedwill were discussing Boris Johnson's reported "propensity to oscillate", Lord Sedwill described how he would try to "insulate" Mr Johnson to ensure government decisions were made.

Mr Keith responded: "The very fact that the Cabinet Secretary has to insulate the PM from the rest of Whitehall is a sorry reflection on the workings of government at that level."

To this, Lord Sedwill said: It was a very challenging period but, as I said, my job was not to judge the way a PM makes a decision – they’re democratically elected.

"It was to try to ensure that, however they got to the decisions that the system of government worked – particually on the big decisions that the Government took going into and coming out of lockdowns."

'This administration is brutal and useless'

14:36 , Jordan King

Mr Keith quoted Sir Patrick Vallance's evening notes which report that Lord Sedwill said in August 2020: "This administration is brutal and useless."

Lord Sedwill told the inquiry he did not remember making the comment, but "does not doubt Sir Patrick's memory".

"It must have been a moment of acute frustration," he added.

Cabinet Secretary Simon Case compared working with Johnson and his team to 'taming wild animals'

14:41 , Jordan King

In messages with his predecessor Lord Sedwill, Mr Case, then-permanent secretary in No 10, wrote on June 5 2020: "It is like taming wild animals. Nothing in my past experience has prepared me for this madness.

"The PM and the people he chooses to surround himself with are basically feral."

Lord Sedwill replied: "I have the bite marks."

No 10 had 'absence of perspective about how people actually lived'

14:48 , Jordan King

Mr Keith repeated what Helen MacNamara said in her written statement- that there was in Number 10 a "striking absence of humanity or perspective about people or families or how people actually lived".

Lord Sedwill said he agreed with these comments.

He explained: "I recall commenting about lockdowns - that the experience of lockdown for those lucky enough to have a garden, a laptop, etc. was wholly different to that of a single mother living in a bedsit with a cleaning job across town. I was acutely concerned about that."

Lord Sedwill says he told the PM to sack Matt Hancock 'to save lives and protect the NHS'

14:58 , Jordan King

Discussing Lord Sedwill's conversations about whether Matt Hancock should stay on as Health Secretary, he sent a text Mr Case saying he had informally advised Mr Johnson to fire Mr Hancock "to save lives and protect the NHS".

Lord Sedwill said this was gallows humour - referring to the Government's Covid slogan at the time.

In an extract from MrJohnson's witness statement, the former prime minister said: "I did not have any concerns regarding the performance of any Cabinet minister including Matt Hancock.

"I do not think that I received any advice from Sir Mark Sedwill that Matt should be removed."

Lord Sedwill said he did not provide any formal advice to sack Mr Hancock, but told the hearing Mr Johnson "would have been under no illusions as to my view about what was best".

That concludes Lord Sedwill's evidence

15:19 , Jordan King

Lord Sedwill has finished giving evidence to the enquiry, which has taken a short break before it hears from MP Justin Tomlinson - the former minister of state for disabled people, health and work

A summary of the main points from today's hearing

16:05 , Jordan King

The former head of the civil service gave evidence at the Covid Inquiry, here are the main takeaways:

Chicken pox party comment:

Lord Sedwill commented on previous claims that he had suggested "chicken pox parties" to promote herd immunity.

A WhatsApp message from Mr Cummings, dated March 12 2020, in which he complained: "Sedwill babbling about chicken pox god f****** help us", was shown to the inquiry last week.

Lord Sedwill said: "I was essentially trying to address this question we touched on several times – which was the judgement that it was inevitable that the virus would spread through the population.

"And what I was trying to examine was: Was there a way of managing that, given its highly differential impact, that ensured it spread through those for whom the disease was likely to be unpleasant rather than dangerous and we could quarantine and shield those for whom it would be dangerous?"

He went on to apologise for the distress caused by the comment, saying: "These were private exchanges and I certainly did not expect them to become public.

"I understand how the particular interpretation that has been put on it, that it must have come across that someone in my role is both heartless and thoughtless about this and I’m genuinely am neither.

"But I do understand the distress that must have caused and I apologise for that because it certainly wouldn’t have been my intention and I wasn’t the one who made it public."

Government was 'brutal and useless', Lord Sedwill said

Mr Keith quoted Sir Patrick Vallance's evening notes which reported that Lord Sedwill said in August 2020: "This administration is brutal and useless."

Lord Sedwill told the inquiry he did not remember making the comment, but "does not doubt Sir Patrick's memory".

"It must have been a moment of acute frustration," he added.

Working with Boris Johnson and his team compared to 'taming wild animals'

In messages with his predecessor Lord Sedwill, Simon Case, then-permanent secretary in No 10, wrote on June 5 2020: "It is like taming wild animals. Nothing in my past experience has prepared me for this madness.

"The PM and the people he chooses to surround himself with are basically feral."

Lord Sedwill replied: "I have the bite marks."

Lord Sedwill joked about wanting Matt Hancock to be sacked 'to save lives and protect the NHS'

Discussing Lord Sedwill's conversations about whether Matt Hancock should stay on as Health Secretary, he sent a text to Mr Case saying he had informally advised Mr Johnson to fire Mr Hancock "to save lives and protect the NHS".

Lord Sedwill said this was gallows humour - referring to the Government's Covid slogan at the time.

Boris Johnson warned the Government of 'political overreaction' before the pandemic

Mr Johnson was quoted as saying the Government needs to stay "measured in its response" in a cabinet meeting on February 6, 2020.

He said: "Often the economic damage of a crisis came from political overreaction rather than the problem itself.”

Over-focus on 'reasonable worst-case scenario' 

At the beginning of Lord Sedwill's evidence, the strong focus was on the "reasonable worst-case scenario" instead of what was most likely to happen - which would still have resulted in a serious number of deaths.

The end of The Evening Standard's live coverage

16:09 , Jordan King

That concludes The Standard's live coverage of the Covid Inquiry today.

We'll keep updating you on important lines on our website.