Yahoo News ‘Succession’ Star Nicholas Braun on Greg’s Final Coup and Slap Fighting Matthew Macfadyen: “We Were So Charged Up”
[This story contains major spoilers from the series finale of Succession, “With Open Eyes.”]
It’s only been days since the Succession series finale released, so it hasn’t quite hit Nicholas Braun that this is a wrap.
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“We’ve been doing it for so long it feels like: Of course we’ll be doing more; I’m sure we have a start date coming up where we’ll be filming again,” he tells The Hollywood Reporter, before coming back down to reality. “That isn’t true. So I’m kind of adjusting to the fact that’s it. I feel so proud of the show and the finale. I just really feel a sense of pride and gratitude about it all.”
Braun, who has played Roy family lackey Cousin Greg on the Emmy-winning HBO series, proved himself to be nothing if not tenacious in his pursuit of power in the end. The final episode, “With Open Eyes,” which was written by creator Jesse Armstrong and directed by Mark Mylod, named Tom Wambsgans (Matthew Macfadyen) as Logan Roy’s (Brian Cox) ultimate successor to his media empire throne, a move that shoved Roy siblings Kendall (Jeremy Strong) and Roman (Kieran Culkin) out of the family business and kept sister Shiv (Sarah Snook) on the Waystar Royco ride alongside her now-CEO husband.
In the end, Tom decides to also bring Greg aboard, but not without keeping both his fellow “Disgusting Brother” and the audience guessing until the final moment, when he stickers Greg in a show of twisted Succession-like affection, literally sealing the deal by placing a sticker on Greg’s forehead between his eyes after the Roy family had similarly done so to keepsakes from their late father. But Braun doesn’t read that moment as a bull’s-eye. “I think Greg will probably get a nice executive job. He might be in the C-suite,” says the actor of Greg ultimately getting what he wanted, even if he is publicly referred to as Judas by new owner Lukas Matsson (Alexander Skarsgard).
Greg’s alliances shifted throughout the final season. As each character jockeyed for their place atop the Waystar kingdom, Greg did anything he could to get as close to the throne as possible. After betraying Tom by tipping off the siblings about his eventual naming as U.S. CEO by Lukas, the pair let out their deep-seated feelings toward each other with a slap fight that Braun says was born out of real punches between the two actors, which contributed to the surprise ending of Tom winning, and Greg winning by proximity. “Tom and Greg are both outsiders … that just feels like the right way to go out,” he says, while also sharing how Armstrong told the cast the series was ending.
Below, in conversation with THR, the actor goes behind the scenes of his final moments with Macfadyen’s Tom, from the fight (“we just let it rip”) to the stickering, reveals a key Greg and Ewan (James Cromwell) scene that didn’t make the final edit (“one of my favorite scenes”), shares his take on the tragic endings for the Roy siblings and explains why there won’t be a Cousin Greg spinoff.
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So, what was the character description for Cousin Greg when you auditioned?
I actually looked this up a few months ago. I just wanted to see what the audition email was, and it was something like “a goofy cousin of the family works at the amusement park and has to take a trip to see Logan to get his job back.” Something pretty basic. And then I looked at the audition sides and there was a scene at the amusement park and then the scene where I’m getting thrown up against the wall by Logan’s security guard. And then maybe the scene where I’m in the car with him trying to convince him to keep me in the game and at work. It’s crazy to think back on that six and a half years ago. I think the email came in August 2016.
When you got the role, were you thinking Greg was going to make it through to the end?
Yeah, I figured he’d hang around. I kind of knew what the duty of that character is, structurally. It is to be the outsider, the beginner; lowest on the totem pole. So it felt like that was the arc. I didn’t know where it was going to end up, but I hoped there would be something special happening that would make where he starts worthwhile for a viewer.
When was the moment in the series that you felt like Greg was an underestimated player?
Probably chopping up the documents, and then saving some [in season two]. That was a huge responsibility and then he did something — I don’t know if it was brilliant — but he did something that gave him a big secret. That was a huge cue.
This final season seems to bring that full circle with his Shiv betrayal in the election night episode, “America Decides,” when Greg outs her alliance with Lukas Matsson to Kendall.
For sure. That was a huge moment, as well. When we were filming it, I was like, “I don’t know, maybe I shouldn’t walk past the window.” I have to have this scene where I’m going to be on the phone with Tom, and he says, “We’re calling the election; we’re calling it. Go call it.” And then [director] Andrij [Parekh] and Jesse [Armstrong, who wrote the episode] were like, “Yeah, it’s fine if you want to go past the window and you can look at Shiv.” And I was like, “Oh yeah, I can look at Shiv after I just told Kendall about her, that’s actually huge.” And they were like, “Yeah, let’s do that.”
So that shrug, or little look, became a really big, important thing. To be like, “That’s fucking right. You don’t give me a deal? You get screwed.” It felt like a huge piece of maturity for Greg. That was really fun and kind of exactly the stuff I’d been hoping for to wrap the series up. Really, the last five or six episodes and back half of the season, especially since Norway as he’s trying to meet Matsson, was really fun for me and Jesse to figure out, “How can we plant some seeds and show that Greg has picked up some real skills here?”
In the final season, how have you felt about the evolution of him and Tom into the “Disgusting Brothers” and Greg’s evolved dirtbag persona? And how do you think that evolution played into his ending?
Greg has always been the most innocent guy in this family, and the question is always, “Well, can someone stay innocent in the Roy world?” The Disgusting Brothers stuff, you could start with the night at the club where they’re drinking vodka with gold flakes. But I think the point of it is about his sweetness and chipping away at the innocence of Greg. You see when he’s pursuing for the character played by Dasha [Nekrasova], Comfrey, that it’s pretty sweet. And then you make that a little less sweet and romantic in calling himself a Disgusting Brother. I guess that evolution goes hand in hand with some of his more cunning and sort of the shitty things he does on the other side of things.
You mention how he’s cunning, and yet Greg has consistently provided laughs throughout the series. In the words of the departed Logan Roy, would you say Greg ends up being a serious person in the end?
Wow. (Laughing.) I think Greg has become a serious person. Not to say he’s not going to be a total idiot sometimes, and maybe always, in a way. But he’s done enough to be taken seriously. It’s not like he was constantly accidentally getting what happened in his progression. So yeah, I think Logan would be proud of Greg, should Logan have survived. I think Logan would have given him a good nod of the head there.
As someone who is constantly looking for a way in with the Roy siblings, to form “the quad,” what was your working relationship like with Jeremy Strong, Sarah Snook and Kieran Culkin during these final episodes?
Yeah … (joking) they’re very upset with me. They were very upset, and they still haven’t spoken to me about it, the way things all shook out. No, it was all good. And really the last few episodes, particularly episodes eight, nine and the finale, everyone was just so locked in. The eighth episode, “America Decides,” was one of my favorite episodes we’ve ever made. I thought every scene was exciting, and then being able to watch Kieran be at his most manic, confident, sociopathic peak was pretty incredible.
Can you talk about what was it like to film that slap fight with Matthew Macfadyen in the finale?
It was so fun. And so exciting. It just felt so right for those guys to have that moment. We didn’t plan much. We knew things were sturdy in the room in case we bumped into them; we knew the room wasn’t going to fall apart, because we were on a set and not in an actual home. Because Logan’s home is a set. And so we just said, “Let’s go for it.” We only knew from the script that Matthew gives a swipe along the side of my head. And whatever happens from there, which instantly should be a hit back from Greg, it was on. We just let it rip and I think we did four takes.
Matthew’s face was very red after the first take because I slapped him really hard. So we had to go quickly, because he was getting more and more red every take. And there are a couple takes where we hit each other in the face more. There were a few more shots we both got in maybe a punch to the stomach or things like that. There were different levels we played with, and this was the one we landed on. But it was fun as hell. We were both so charged up, full of adrenaline. And then had to go home with all of that adrenaline.
So it wasn’t scripted after the first slap?
I think it was scripted as a hit on the head; whatever [Tom] does there. And a slap from Greg. I can’t be sure but I think it was: “And Greg hits him back.” And then it was up to us however long and whatever happened after that.
Were you beat up after?
I had some cuts on my hands from his nails. I don’t think he got me too clean on the face ever, but I definitely had some scrapes and bumps and bruises and things on my body. When you do something four times just banging into a wall, some stuff happens!
How did you put yourself in Greg’s shoes to unleash that on Tom; what took over you in that moment?
I just allowed Greg to follow his instinct there, as opposed to how he constantly questions his instincts and asks, “Is this OK?” Sometimes he goes with it, sometimes he doesn’t. Everything is so important in that finale episode that I let him and myself just not cower from that moment. And that’s what I went with, and whatever happened from there. There were a few takes where we both sort of grunted to each other, and I didn’t want to back down. That’s how I approached it.
The show tackles physical violence in the finale, especially with your fight and Kendall’s violence toward Roman. What were your conversations like with Jesse Armstrong and director Mark Mylod about filming this scene?
What was important for me and for Jesse was to have a fight that made an audience feel like the Greg and Tom relationship is really possibly over. Whatever we see in this fight should be visceral enough and clear enough that Tom does not trust him, and Greg is not backing down and is not going to be his little bitch anymore. He’s not going to apologize, even though he should. It had to be important enough and violent enough that going into that next part of the episode, we’re not sure what’s going to happen with that friendship.
Why do you think Tom forgave Greg in the end, and pulled him along for this Waystar ride?
One way to think about it is that the deal, the sort of contract that Tom offers Greg at the end of season three about joining him on the dark side and “sell your soul,” basically, and, “I’ll take care of you.” That’s the promise, and I think he’s keeping that promise. He’s saying, “I know you are doing shit, which is basically selling your soul. And I just want to say: I got you.” And maybe there is some pride in it for Tom, like when Greg tries to blackmail him with the documents. And Tom can’t go into this CEO position without a wingman. He’s not going to go in solo and hire some new random executive to help him with the transition. He’s got to take his guy. And also, when you fight your best friend, it might make you better friends. So maybe their relationship is even stronger.
Can you talk about the sticker scene: How was it written in the script compared to what we saw, and what does that final moment mean to you for Greg?
I think we just followed the script on that. What was important to me was that, up until he stickers Greg, we have to doubt that he’ll take him with him in this moment of Tom having won the crown. Everything that led up to that, like that fight and the rest of it, just felt like we have to know that’s not going to happen. So what happens is huge. When we were filming it, we wanted to have it be slower and more sentimental, kind of casual: “So yeah, how’s it going? And how are you feeling? And, what about Frank and Karl? And what about this.” It was actually really helpful that they brought over some people to shake hands with Tom; they didn’t have that the first couple of takes. For Greg, it felt like Tom was not focused on this conversation. This big conversation that we’re having right now, he’s not focused on it. That made me as Greg feel worse, which was nice. So everything leading up to the stickering, we wanted to be a question mark for the audience.
Was that the final scene you filmed on the series?
Basically. We filmed the signing of the contract with Matsson in the conference room as the actual final scene [separate from the “Meal Fit for a King” filmed on location with only the Roy siblings]. But between Tom and I, that was our last scene.
What was it like when you heard cut and you knew you had it, and basically wrapped on Succession?
I never want to stop filming my scenes with [Matthew]. Since day one; they’re so fun and funny and exciting. In the grand scheme of the show, what Tom and Greg are dealing with is so much less important than what the siblings and Logan and that side of the family is dealing with. But to us, the scenes feel really loaded and high-stakes and important. There’s just such a connection when he and I are looking at each other trying to figure out what each other is thinking, and strategize as we’re having a conversation. It’s this really nice dance where I’m following his face, his movement or tone, and he’s following mine. So every take we have together is this really fluid thing. I guess it’s kind of unexplainable, but it felt really sad when we were having to end that. We know this will be the last time we’re doing that sort of dance together.
When it comes to the ending, fans theorized Greg could maybe win in the end. The fans also ship Greg and Tom, almost like a love story. When did you find out about how the show was going to end?
We all found out before the season started to shoot, before we got scripts. It was maybe two or three months before, Jesse got us all on a Zoom and he told us that it would be the last, and that Logan would die in episode three. And he left the door open a little bit, and has kind of left the door open always, but then he closed it more and more every time he talked about it. But in the beginning on that call, he was like, “I’m thinking I’m going to end it. But I might be six months in and I might think, ‘You know what, I’ve figured out a new way to create more story.’” But I think as the season went on and he was shaping it up, he was like, “We should all act as if this will be the end. That’s the best way to do this.”
I’m sure there’s some denial or hoping Jesse would change his mind. When did it feel sealed that the show was ending?
We started production in June or July, and I think we all felt that at the halfway point we would know. And then we didn’t hear anything. It became January or something and we still didn’t know but if you don’t hear anything, I think you assume nothing’s changed. And then at the final table read he did say, “Yeah, this will be it.” And then we all read it together for a first time in the room, because we Zoomed the whole rest of the season. So, definitely a state of denial. But it was kind of nice to be like, “I don’t know.” Sometimes it’s nice to stay in the dark on those kinds of things.
There was so much made about who was going to be the successor. When you first found out it was Tom and that Greg was along for the ride, what was your gut reaction?
Just proud of Tom, you know. Just really proud of Tom. Well done! (Laughing.) Truly, it was really satisfying to know it was Tom. I think if you give it to one of the siblings, there would have been something underwhelming about it. I guess it would be nice for Kendall to get it because we’ve seen him try so hard for four seasons. But there’s something about giving it to Tom, giving it to an outsider. Tom and Greg are both outsiders and the fact that those two guys end up together winning, that just feels like such a big ending and the right way to go out.
Have you thought about what their life looks like from here with Greg in this role?
They definitely move in together. (Laughing.) I think Greg will probably get a nice executive job. I think, why not? Who else is Tom going to give a big job to? Maybe he’ll give one to Gerri [J. Smith-Cameron], he says in that scene. But I think he’ll probably put Greg up there. He might be in the C-suite.
James Cromwell told us you two filmed a scene together where Greg confronts Ewan. It didn’t make the final cut of episode nine, but it sounded like a big moment for Greg. How did you bring that scene into the ending, even though we didn’t get to see it?
I was sad to see that one go, honestly. That was one of my favorite scenes I filmed this year. It was cathartic for those two characters to actually hash it out. It was beautifully written and James was so good. Greg comes into that scene [after Ewan’s eulogy] bragging to him saying, “First of all, thanks for lying to me in the church.” And saying, “You’re not my grandpa who can tell me what to do anymore. You lied to me; you disinherited me. And you know, I fire people now. I fired 100 guys last week.” That’s something he brags about. And his grandpa is like, “Wow, look what you’ve turned into.” It’s someone reflecting to Greg: “You used to be a little boy who would come to the house and we would fish together and look at birds. And now look at you. You’re a firing machine.”
I just loved it because that really is the way to get the full picture of where Greg has gotten to, from a boy to now. Where he’s lost a lot of that sweetness and naïveté, and that sort of adolescent feeling that I always wanted to bring to the character. The first season or two, Greg could really enjoy the perks of being in the Roy world; the guy who can actually have fun being on a jet and being in the Escalades that drive around the city. And slowly he becomes a guy who gets desensitized to all of that, and this was a scene for that to be reflected back to him. I want to see that scene at some point; I’d love to see it. We also improv’d a lot and James was so great; he was so tuned in to his character.
It also highlights the neglect of Greg’s upbringing. Greg has been raised in this abusive family, too.
Yeah. It’s different because he probably only sees Ewan at Christmas and Thanksgiving and Easter. And Ewan’s an asshole, but he’s not the same kind of asshole as Logan at all. He wants to be anti-Logan. But I still think he’s hardened in a way that’s not very loving. None of them got that warmth.
When you look at the endings for the siblings, there’s a ton of tragedy, but some viewers are finding hope in small ways. Do you understand why Shiv sided with Tom and betrayed Kendall in the end?
I have a hard time thinking that Shiv is siding with Tom. I know that her dropping her hand on his hand in the last moment signals that she’s going to be with Tom. But I feel like she kind of forfeited that. I think she did that in a comforting moment, but I’m not convinced they will stay together and that they will work out. My interpretation is that Shiv just didn’t think Kendall was right. And it was on a gut level. And so much of the strategizing that they do and those big conversations in the finale is strategy. It’s like when you’re convincing yourself that you feel a certain way and I think that she’s just like, “I don’t want to pretend anymore. You’re just not it, and maybe none of us are it. And that’s it. Let’s be done.”
So much of the show is not saying what you actually feel. You’re dancing around it because no one wants to lose power, lose their seat or their position. But I love the line, “I just can’t stomach it.” That’s just the truth. And it’s always been her truth, I think, and for Roman, too. So I don’t think there’s a relationship for Shiv and Tom, actually. That’s my read on it.
At the premiere, your castmates including Brian Cox suggested a Greg spinoff when we asked if there are ways to continue the world of Succession. Is that something you have heard or anything you’d be excited about doing?
I don’t think that’s something that Jesse wants to do or I want to do, because I think what we’ve made here should be a stand-alone thing. I was watching the finale for the first time when everybody else was, and I felt like it hit every note possible. And, unexpected notes. Like the kids being so joyful. I knew about the “Meal Fit for a King” scene, but that scene was just better than you could imagine. You felt so much fun between the siblings. I felt like the ride that Jesse put us on is just the end of the story. And for us to try and spark up a Greg spinoff … look, if he figures something out, which he’s always said, “If I figure out a way to extend this, I’ll come talk to you guys.” And if he figures out a way, then I’d follow him down that road.
That’s a great segue to talk about the writing of this show, particularly amid the ongoing writers strike. Have the writers talked over the years about how much fun it is to write for Greg on this show?
(Laughing.) It almost goes without saying. I don’t know much about their process. We didn’t hear about how they came up with this or who wrote these pages or who did these revisions; was this Jesse or the writer of the episode? He has probably 10 writers total in the room with him; you don’t know who came up with what. So it’s not like the writers say, “I came up with this thing for you.” Maybe with Nero and Sporus, that was being talked about as something they figured out that they were super excited about. But otherwise, it’s kind of a mystery. And it’s nice that way. So it’s just a team effort. I would imagine they did have a lot of fun.
Are there any Greg lines that will always stick with you?
My mind goes blank when I try to think of lines, I can’t lie. I’m not a guy who remembers lyrics or lines from movies. Or lines that I said. I say them and we shoot it, and they go out of my brain. But about their writing in regards to the writers strike, I wish it could be communicated to the people whom the writers are negotiating with — and that the actors and directors will be negotiating with — the reality of being a writer and an artist in this world. I wish you could show them all the work that a writer is doing in their bedroom writing a spec script or writing a play, or writing something that Jesse would eventually read and would eventually put you in a writers room. And you would get this credit. And learning from a master like him. It’s about the process.
I was a young kid, 6 years old, when I did my first thing. I made my first movie at 11. We love movies and TV shows and theater, but we love them as kids. I wish it was understood that the journey to being an artist is long and difficult one, and mostly spend in solitude. And then eventually, you’re making a show that people love. But it doesn’t happen without this long road and so along the way, if people don’t get paid what would be a livable salary, then those aspiring writers and actors and directors, they fall off. And I think that’s really sad to think that someone who might write a show like Succession might not make it through that weeding-out process because they weren’t paid enough, or they didn’t get the right residuals or any number of those things that are just trying to give writers a better salary.
It might move the dial for them to know what it’s like to be an artist. Because, the people on the AMPTP side, they’re not artists. They chose to be executives who facilitate art and promote art. But I wish there was a way to show them or make them feel on a visceral level what it means to be a person writing in their bedroom or in a coffee shop, or an actor staying up late and trying to memorize lines for their four auditions next day, trying to get a pilot.
When you look back at how Greg has changed you, what do you want to do next?
I’ve been so inspired by the writing of this show that while making this show I started to write. For a long time I’ve wanted to direct, and I think I’ve realized I want to be a part of the process in a bigger way than just acting. I love writing and I’ve written a few things. They’ll hopefully be made soon, once the strike is over. That’s really important to me. And then in the last few months I’ve just reflected on how much Succession has changed my life, and how many great relationships and other parts of my life have changed in great ways. And honestly, there’s nothing like working with the most talented people possible. To have read six years of Jesse’s scripts? It’s changed all of us. It’s just been a really huge, I think, evolution for all of us as actors.
Is there anything you kept from set?
You know what, I didn’t take anything. I wore some good suits, and I don’t think they would give me any of my watches. I kind of just let it all go on my last day, just keep it all.
Interview edited for length and clarity. A version of this story will appear in the June 15 issue of The Hollywood Reporter magazine. Click here to subscribe. Succession is now streaming on Max. Read THR‘s finale coverage.
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