Yahoo News TCM’s Ben Mankiewicz Discusses the New Season of ‘The Plot Thickens’ Podcast: John Ford ‘Was More Human Than Any of Us’
For the latest season of TCM and Novel’s “The Plot Thickens” podcast, host Ben Mankiewicz became a treasure hunter. Maybe part of him always was, as the job of a film historian is often to find and showcase work that’s been lost. Taking it a step further, introducing others to any new film for the first time can make one feel like Indiana Jones discovering the Ark of the Covenant and Mankiewicz emulates that experience with “The Plot Thickens.” In Season 5, Mankiewicz examines the life and works of filmmaker John Ford, using audio conversations with Katherine Hepburn, Woody Strode, John Wayne, and others to illuminate our understanding of the masterful, yet mercurial director. But there’s an added adventure within Mankiewicz’ journey towards understanding Ford that sees the critic and personality cross oceans, brave harsh weather, and come face-to-face with the horrors of the past.
One of the great pieces of lost cinema is John Ford’s film of the D-Day Invasion of Normandy on June 6, 1944. Though Ford’s documentary short film “The Battle of Midway” was revered for its brutal, yet stunning imagery and ability to make war a reality for Americans an ocean away, many believe his D-Day film was too horrifying for public consumption. In past interviews, Ford himself referenced the film and acknowledged its gruesome content, but archivists around the world have been unable to discover a single copy. For “The Plot Thickens: Decoding John Ford,” Mankiewicz threw his hat in the ring as well, traveling to London to view footage, as well as bearing witness to Omaha Beach, one of the key landing sites of the Normandy Invasion.
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Though the search is only one part of the narrative this season draws up, it’s a reminder of the value Mankiewicz and others place in preserving not only film history, but Ford’s legacy. Speaking to IndieWire for an exclusive on the new season, Mankiewicz said Ford and his films were full of “contradictions” and “myths” that ended up negatively shaping our perception of how this nation came to be, yet the beauty and humanity of his films rise above all judgement.
“There are a litany of criticisms that you can lay out when discussing Ford and they ought to be discussed, and they should be discussed, and they’re true, and none of that takes away from the reverence that he is also due,” Mankiewicz said. “For not only creating one really important, emotional film after another, but for being the chief propagandist for our own image of what it meant to be an early American.”
Despite a number of written pieces and documentaries that have covered Ford’s history and career, Mankiewicz felt drawn to bringing the director back into the spotlight after uncovering tapes of him and others that very few had heard.
“Ford’s story was — it’s not like it hasn’t been told — but not in a long time and not really anywhere except in a series of pretty well-researched and well-written biographies, no question, which we culled a tremendous amount of information from,” he explained. “But none of that would’ve happened without finding all this audio that certainly has not been heard by anyone outside people choosing to go listen to it, has not been distributed, and has not been curated into something like this.”
He added later, “Hearing from Ford himself, hearing from Katherine Hepburn talk about him — the compassionate way you’ll hear her talk about him — it changes how you think about him. I’m not saying it makes him better or worse, it just makes him more human and John Ford, I think in many ways, was more human than any of us. Everything he did was with his strengths and flaws and his humor and his aggression and his self-loathing and his brilliance all mixed up in one.”
And Mankiewicz isn’t the only one with reverence for Ford and his films. His recent TCM collaborators, Steven Spielberg, Martin Scorsese, and Paul Thomas Anderson have also been outspoken in regards to their affection for the director, with Spielberg even paying homage in his recent film “The Fabelmans” to a moment he shared with Ford early in his career. In his conversation with IndieWire, Mankiewicz also revealed a backstage moment that took place between the three TCM curators.
“During the wonderful help those three directors have given us at TCM — on one of the Zoom calls that we had with them about a year ago as they were talking about what they wanted to see on TCM in 2024 — much of which, you’re going to see on TCM in 2024 — there was just a moment, and I hope I’m not betraying anything by revealing this, where the three of them were having a conversation at another time about, after seeing one of their movies, about who among them had made the most John Ford-ian film,” he said, smiling. “Initially they had said that it was and I think they still think it’s ‘There Will Be Blood,’ that Paul had made the most John Ford-ian film. But the question was, is ‘Killers of the Flower Moon’ more John Ford-ian than ‘There Will Be Blood?’ And I was like, ‘This is a really fun conversation.’”
Without revealing the results of Mankiewicz’s search, it can be said that this new season of “The Plot Thickens” unearths a great deal. Using newfound recordings and providing expert commentary, Mankiewicz pulls listeners back into the past and ends up drawing a fuller picture of John Ford as a person than perhaps anyone else has before.
“I think he made movies because he fancied himself an artist, though I don’t think he’d ever use those words,” Mankiewicz said when asked what he thought motivated Ford to be a filmmaker. “He could paint. He could draw. And this gave him an opportunity to be an artist and to be in charge and to be the commander. This was where he was the captain. And I’m gonna guess that it got him away from home for a time, though I’m sure he wanted to come back. And it created that sense of community that he so desperately wanted. The cruel irony is that his manner of behaving on the set kept him from being a full part of that community.”
Because this wouldn’t be a conversation with Mankiewicz without talking about movies, when asked what his favorite Ford film was, he responded, “‘The Last Hurrah.’ Part of that is motivated by, I’m sure, a desire not to give an answer that other people give, but I love it. I love political films and my dad loved that movie. From his memory as a kid, the most, sort of, accurate political films that resonated the most from that era when he was then a young man were ‘All the King’s Men’ and ‘The Last Hurrah.’ He just thought that was the best campaign film ever.”
Listen to “The Plot Thickens: Decoding John Ford” starting on June 6 on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, and watch the trailer for the season below.
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